Talk:Seventh chord

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More typical[edit]

Furrykef I have to disagree that the names and abbreviations/symbols you added are "more typical". They may be common, and some of them may be the most common, but a dominant seventh/major minor seventh is most commonly X7, not XMm7. Of course we may include both options, but I thought I would "talk" as you removed some. Hyacinth 04:20, 14 May 2004 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hmm? I'm confused as to what you mean.

--Furrykef 07:59, 14 May 2004 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry, chronology screwed up. What I meant to say was I don't think Δ7 is "more typical" than M7, which you removed. Thanks. Hyacinth 08:20, 14 May 2004 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Hmm, that's a major seventh, not dominant seventh. Anyway, that would be true, but I'd think maj7 is the most common of all. However, I'll add M7 back (and Mm7 as well) since it's probably still common; if removing it might be dubious, it's probably not a good idea. I'll also add the minor-major seventh (it's rare but still a seventh chord) and note that the half-diminished is commonly written m7b5. :)

--Furrykef 09:10, 14 May 2004 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Thinking of a half-diminished chord as an m7b5 is more accurate. People tend to say 'diminished 7th' and 'half diminished 7th' when in fact those terms are entirely incorrect. The terms 'diminished' and 'half diminished' don't need to be qualified with a '7th'.

--Adambisset 17:28, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You mention that "The other three possible seventh chords – the minor/major seventh (also m/maj7, m/M7), the augmented/major seventh, and the augmented/augmented seventh – are rarely seen in western music". But m/maj7 is quite common in jazz, which is western music, last I checked :) Also, there are other interesting seventh chords that pop up a lot in jazz, like the alt chord. Would it be appropriate to mention jazz uses of seventh chords here, or should there be a separate topic for jazz chord theory? (It would be weird to bifurcate every single theory topic into a "classical version" and a "jazz version", I think.)--Rictus 7 July 2005 07:52 (UTC)

I agree, you will see a decent number of major 7 chord with an augmented fifth in modern jazz compositions. Its a really dissonant sort of chord, but thats why it is so loved, and fits the symmetrical augmented scaled (alternating minor 3rds and half steps) very nicely, as well as the third modes of the harmonic and melodic minors. The minor 7 chord with the sharpened fifth, however, would never be seen (with the possible exception of a line cliche, like in the James Bond theme), because the ear wouldn't be able to distinguish it in any meaningful manner from a major chord in first inversion with a ninth on it.Havic5 07:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The chord that is compared to the diminished 7th at the end of the article is incorrectly labelled a minor 9th. Although not completely obvious by the name, "minor 9th chord" refers to a minor triad with a major 9th from the root, and sometimes a minor 7th. The chord shown is a dominant 7th chord with a minor 9th, G7(b9). I don't know how to edit the picture but someone should, or I'll take it off. -Bob (Nov 19 2006)

Diatonic and chromatic[edit]

The article uses the term "diatonic", but without adequate explanation. This term, along with "chromatic", is the cause of serious uncertainties at several other Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! – Noetica♬♩Talk 01:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Happy Birthday to You"[edit]

"A well-known example of the harmonic seventh chord is the ending of the modern addition to the song "Happy Birthday to You", with the words "and many more!" The harmony on the word "more" is typically sung as a harmonic seventh chord (Mathieu, pg. 126)."

I've never heard of this supposedly "well-known" modern addition, and I'm pretty sure the tune I know doesn't have any seventh chords in it. Does everyone else know what this is talking about? If it's just me, and the rest of the world knows it, then fine... Matt 01:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

yeah i know what he is talking about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:57, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's something some people throw in at the end (and less likely to embarrass an older person than "Are ya one, are ya two, are ya three..."). I'm not sure you could say for certain what the harmony should be, though, because IME most large group tend to turn Happy Birthday into a polytonal, dissonant mess anyway. Everybody pick a key and start singing! — Gwalla | Talk 22:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Explanation: The sentiment of the song is "Happy birthday". Sometimes at the end people sing, "and many more". This means, "we hope you have 'many more' 'happy birthdays'". Hyacinth (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Requested audio[edit]

I have added some audio examples to the article. Hyacinth (talk) 07:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Incorrect definition[edit]

"Dominant seventh" is correctly used in reference to the V7 chord. A major-minor seventh chord may be built using accidentals on other scale degrees, but can only occur naturally when built on the dominant. Confusion arises when we refer to non-dominant functioning chords in the same manner "Cdom7". "Dominant" is not referring to the major-minor structure, but to the fact that the chord is acting in a dominant function and most often as the dominant of the key (so a Cdom7 implies a tonic of F). I would recommend specifying this in the introduction. The information is otherwise correct; in fact anytime you encounter an unspecified seventh chord, major-minor is understood because it is the most commonly used in western classical tradition. Also, only the first 5 types of seventh chords listed in your chart would be considered common in western tradition. [1]

"A dominant seventh chord is a chord built upon the dominant of a major diatonic scale, containing a dominant (major) triad and an additional minor seventh (for example G-B-D-F in C major). It is typically denoted G7." [2]

"The chord is often called the dominant 7th because it is built on the dominant. By this term we are referring both to the type of chord and to the function of a chord in a harmonic context. As a diatonic chord in a major key, the 7th can only be found in this position. All other diatonic 7th chords will be other kinds of 7ths." [3]

  1. ^ Reno, Robert. "Harmony: Understanding Seventh Chords". Learning and Loving Music Theory. Retrieved 7/20/2013. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  2. ^ "Dominant (music)". Wikipedia. Retrieved 7/21/2013. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  3. ^ Torvund, Olav. "Dominant 7'th". Guitar Chords. Olav Torvund. Retrieved 7/21/2013. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help) and Loving Music Theory|accessdate=7/20/2013

Jlope014 (talk) 00:30, 22 July 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Quote in frequency-of-use diagram needs a 'C' ?[edit]

The diagram below the 1st paragraph in the article contains quoted text that reads: "A ranking by frequency of the seventh chords in major would be approximately that shown."[1].

I think 'C ' is missing just before the word 'major'. Maybe a nit, but the sentence doesn't make sense without it. Might even be clearer by inserting 'the key of C ' before 'major'.

I didn't change the article, because the text is apparently quoted verbatim from the 3rd addition of footnoted publication [1]: Kostka; Payne (1995). Tonal Harmony (3rd ed.). p. 225. ISBN 0-07-300056-6. I'm not sure if this was an oversight in the 3rd edition of Tonal Harmony (which currently has an 8th edition), or a cut'n'paste booboo when porting it to the article.Wikieveryman123 (talk) 22:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Seventh chords py pattern[edit]

This page describes tertian and common non-tertian chords. However, it does not specify a pattern for determining which subset of the 64 seventh chords get credit.

I suggest the following pattern: any 7th that can be constructed by

   -  a. a min or maj 3th
   -  b. a dim, perfect or aug 5th
   -  c. a min or maj 7th

This gives us the 12 permutations below. 2 limits (dim7 and aug-aug7) are added to get a total of 14 chords. 12 of these chords are already mentioned (8 tertian and 4 non-tertian). However, 2 are being left out: min7(#5) and min-maj7(#5). I believe they deserve their place in the list of non-tertian chords.

What do you guys think?

   -id	        3th	5th	triad	alt triad	7th	tetrad	        alt tetrad	i(1-3)	i(3-5)	i(5-7)
   -0,3,6,9     min	dim	dim		        dim	dim7		                min	min	min
   -0,3,6,10	min	dim	dim		        min	half-dim7	min7(b5)	min	min	maj
   -0,3,6,11	min	dim	dim		        maj	dim-maj7	min-maj7(b5)	min	min	aug
   -0,3,7,10	min	perfect	min		        min	min7		                min	maj	min
   -0,3,7,11	min	perfect	min		        maj	min-maj7		        min	maj	maj
   -0,3,8,10	min	aug		min(#5)	        min		        min7(#5)	min	aug	dim
   -0,3,8,11	min	aug		min(#5)	        maj		        min-maj7(#5)	min	aug	min
   -0,4,6,10	maj	dim		maj(b5)	        min		        dom7(b5)	maj	dim	maj
   -0,4,6,11	maj	dim		maj(b5)	        maj		        maj7(b5)	maj	dim	aug
   -0,4,7,10	maj	perfect	maj		        min	dom7		                maj	min	min
   -0,4,7,11	maj	perfect	maj		        maj	maj7		                maj	min	maj
   -0,4,8,10	maj	aug	aug		        min	aug7	        dom7(#5)	maj	maj	dim
   -0,4,8,11	maj	aug	aug		        maj	aug-maj7	maj7(#5)	maj	maj	min
   -0,4,8,12    maj     aug     aug                     aug     aug-aug7                        maj     maj     maj